by John B. Rosenman

Some years back, still smarting from a critical roasting by my writers’ group of one of my most brilliant and inspired stories, I had an idea for a themed anthology that would be the most horrific and frightening ever published. It would be called Writers’ Groups from Hell and compared to it, vampires and werewolves, sadists and serial killers would be like a visit to Arby’s. Extreme splatter-gore? Cosmic monsters? Creepy, gothic, Ramsey Campbell-like atmosphere? Pah! They wouldn’t be in the same ballpark. I even started a story in which Ed Gein, Ted Bundy, and Lovecraft’s Old Ones team up to commit a string of ghastly and unmentionable crimes only to run right into the arms of an overly-critical writers’ group. As Kurtz would say, “The horror, the horror!”

Some writers’ groups can be horrifying, or at least, a complete waste of your valuable time. And since life is short, what can be worse than that? I’ve heard of groups which are nothing more than mutual admiration societies. They meet at each other’s homes for prolonged events accompanied by food and booze and listen as each member reads his work. Afterward, they reward him with tumultuous applause, tell him how wonderful his junk is, and reach for another piece of pizza as the next participant rises with his masterpiece.

Uncritical praise. We all want it, but the sad truth is, it’s almost always a dangerous delusion, a tempting lie that will hurt rather than help our creative pursuits.

Then there are writers’ groups that involve another snare. They are vicious, confusing, discouraging and demoralizing. Their members have transparent envies and agendas, personal crotchets or preferences, and they are opinionated readers rather than discerning critics. Often, their “critiques” reveal not so much the merits or demerits of what you’ve written, but some personal inner quirk, wound, neurosis, or impenetrable denseness. Perhaps worst of all, their comments may be all over the waterfront and resemble a dozen blind men feeling different parts of an elephant and thinking it’s a refrigerator. You sit at the table or lounge on the floor, and listen as they grind their myriad axes and their sage words go around the room.

“I didn’t understand the ending. It’s too ambiguous. Why does Jesse leave Gladys? I thought he loved her!”

“The ending doesn’t work. It’s too obvious. Jesse should have left Gladys years before.”

“Why does the green leaf in the first sentence glitter? It’s just a leaf.” [I actually got this once.]

(Thinly veiled disgust, implying that you’re a pervert who shouldn’t be allowed near children.) “Why are you so obsessed with sex? I find this scene sick.”

“Why Jesse’s hair? Why not his hand or belt buckle?”

(Thinly veiled contempt, implying you shouldn’t give up your day job.) “I didn’t like this story. It’s ridiculous, clumsy, and fails on all levels. You shouldn’t write about leaves anyway.”

“A gun goes off outside and Jesse thinks something might be wrong? DUH!” (A look around to see if others appreciate her wit and urging them to join in her mocking laughter.) “Not very bright, is he? And you expect us to believe he’s a DETECTIVE?”

“I have just a few changes to suggest. Why don’t you make Jesse an old black man instead of a young white hippie and make him a quadriplegic. And instead of breaking up with his girlfriend because he can’t stand her jealousy, have him do it because he finds out he’s gay. And I don’t like his negative attitude toward women. Make him an outspoken supporter of women’s rights. That way, when the church roof caves in, we mourn him. As it is, I don’t care a rip about your character.”

“This story’s too expository.”

“I like the exposition. It’s poetic. And I like the idea about making Jesse an old black guy, except I think Puerto Rican would be better. And I don’t like the name Jesse. Call him Eduardo.”

Okay, I exaggerate slightly, but comments like these are fairly common. Clearly, when one joins a writers’ group, he must be prepared not only to accept criticism but to critique it. Some criticism is about as helpful as an impacted tooth and you follow it at your peril.

This brings me, perhaps belatedly, to the two main points of this essay. They are as follows:

1. Why attend or join a writers’ group anyway? Or, put another way, why subject yourself to such insults and obtuseness?

2. What should a good writers’ group be like and how can you recognize it?

Question # 1. We need writers’ groups because we are not perfect. That is, as gifted as we might be, we have limitations, inadequacies, and blind spots. And I dare say that applies even to some of the luminaries in this community. Good as we are, we can occasionally profit from a fresh and different perspective. Perhaps someone has specialized knowledge we lack or sees that a particular theme needs to be explored further. Perhaps someone else is a brilliant line editor and can improve a clumsy patch of writing or highlight an inconsistency or implausibility. Whatever the case, since we are not like Mozart in the movie Amadeus who simply writes down his symphonies as if he is taking “dictation” from the Almighty, we can usually benefit, sometimes greatly, from others’ input.

The main caveat here is that it is still our job to judge what others say, to critique the critiquers, especially when they disagree with each other and offer contradictory advice. But more about that later.

There are, of course, other reasons for joining a writers’ group, including the opportunity to interact with folks who share your interest in and enthusiasm for writing. Writing is often a solitary and lonely pursuit. The camaraderie of a good group can be inspiring, uplifting, and make you feel that you’re not alone but part of a community of like-minded souls. Plus, you can learn, not only about writing but about fellow writers, who are often amazing.

Finally, at its best, a writers’ group can be fun. My group laughs long and often, in addition to doing its job. We enjoy being with each other and have a good time.

Question # 2. You can recognize a good writers’ group because it helps writers to improve what they write and to sell it. Also, the flavor and feel of its meetings is sociable and productive. Some of the comments and criticisms may bite and make you tense, but when you consider them objectively, you realize they serve your central mission, which is to produce the best, most marketable work you can.

Now, for specifics. I’m not saying the following guidelines are the only valid ones or that every writers’ group must conduct itself in this precise manner. All I know is that for the past eighteen years or so, it has worked well for me. (Perhaps Dave Wilson, a former member of our group, will chime in later.)

1. I find that the ideal group size is between six to eight members. Too many more and a writer gets overwhelmed with critiques. Too many less, and there simply are not enough viewpoints to revise the work well enough. However, at times our group has chugged ably along with as many as twelve members and as few as three or four. In my judgment, it just hasn’t been as effective. An important requirement is that the members be capable and discerning readers. If they’re poor, having a hundred of them won’t do you any good.

2. We meet every two weeks from 6:30 to 9:00 pm. at a local library and pass out hard copies of our story, chapter, etc. to each member. A two-week break between meetings is about right. If we met every week there wouldn’t be adequate time to read and comment on every piece and to write a new one ourselves. As it is, we can relax a little, and then start preparing for the next meeting.

3. We limit ourselves to no more than thirty pages per meeting for each writer. It’s just common sense. Fifty or more pages would be too much.

4. We mark the stories up in advance and comment on each one as we move around the table until everyone has had a chance to comment. If Mary starts critiquing one story, then the person who begins on the next is the person sitting next to Mary. That way we have a system. After the meeting, we give the edited, marked-up stories to the writer. Written comments should be ample and clear enough so that he can understand them later. How honest should critical comments be? VERY honest. I have lost sales because somebody wasn’t frank or explicit enough about a weakness to catch my attention. At the same time, no one should be cruel. You can give a hard-hitting critique without eviscerating someone. Inevitably, though, feathers will sometimes be ruffled.

5. It helps to have a facilitator. Basically, what he does is to set up an official schedule (in our case he reserves the room in the library every two weeks for six months in advance.) Also, he picks the person who starts critiquing, and he makes sure no one is taking too long and we don’t run out of time. Now and then someone will get bogged down in detail. In this case, the guy in charge will nudge him.

6. Our meetings are structured but not rigid. I said before that we laugh a lot. While we usually don’t interrupt a critique, occasionally we do, whether it’s to make a point on the story or to question what the person said. Sometimes a difference of opinion will be aired as a result. As for the writer on the hot seat, he feels free to respond to comments, perhaps to ask questions or to disagree with a criticism. However, we discourage detailed defenses of one’s work. We are, after all, there to hear what others say, not to rebut it.

7. While someone’s being evaluated, he evaluates what’s said. Some criticisms are just dead wrong. After a while, if the members remain the same, we learn about each other’s preferences and modes of thinking. Some readers are better than others, but almost all have their strengths. One person will be good with detail and line editing. Another may make broad, sweeping comments that prove helpful. Yet another may prefer concrete endings that leave little to the imagination. You, as writer, have to sift through and assay their responses, decide how seriously you should take them. If one person makes a criticism or suggestion, you might decide to ignore it. But if two, three or more do it, you probably want to give it a second look.

8. After you receive your story with everyone’s comments, you take it home and revise it based on them. Then, if you feel the story still needs work, you may take a revised version back to the group. Here, folks need to be tolerant and patient. I’ve resubmitted a story or chapter on numerous occasions. Usually I’ve done it only once, but sometimes I’ve done it twice. And there’s no guarantee it will work. Occasionally a story will just sicken and die. You can’t save or heal it, at least not yet. Usually, though, the revision process is a productive one. You keep improving the story, making it better and better, refining it to a point where you just can’t improve it anymore unless you put it in a drawer for a year and return with a fresh eye.

9. When I get to this point, I sometimes e-mail the story to a person in the group whose judgment I respect. This is the fine-tuning stage. Afterward the story should be ready to face the rejection mill. Hopefully, I’ve done my research and send it to the best market. And then I begin writing my next story, because I want to have one ready in eight days when we meet again.

That’s about it. As I said before, this method isn’t perfect. After all, a writers’ group involves flawed human beings. At times even the best group can be hellish and counter-productive. But over the years, this approach has enabled me to sell over a hundred stories as well as a couple of novels. One member of our group has already sold four novels of a detective series to a major publisher. So the system does work. Ultimately, a group such as ours depends on two things: serious writers who are willing to listen, accept criticism, and work hard to improve their work, and competent, perceptive critics who genuinely want to help them. When both conditions exist, wonderful things can happen.

Share/Save/Bookmark

This entry was posted on Tuesday, February 13th, 2007 at 10:16 pm.
Categories: Uncategorized.

17 Comments, Comment or Ping

  1. David Niall Wilson

    Heh, I guess I’m too far removed from the group to count these days…I’m a former member of John’s writer’s group who also learned quite a lot from them. I made my first major sale from attending that group…to another member of the group.

    John left out my personal favorite: “This story has passive voice. There should be NO passive voice”.

    And John? Richard was right about Jesse’s hair (wink).

    D

  2. John B. Rosenman

    Dave, it has been observed by this writer that you sometimes liked the passive voice.

    Hmm, my pc says this essay is still publishing . . .

  3. David Niall Wilson

    I do sometimes like the passive voice. It was that woman (whose name I can’t recall) who criticized every work with that comment…

    Dave

  4. Stan

    Although it was too expository, I thoroughly enjoyed your piece, John. Never been a member of a writers’ group and don’t know that I would . . . unless this is a writers’ group. Thanks for the insight.

    Stan

  5. I.J.Parker

    As a member of John’s group (after David’s time), I can testify to everything he has said. Our group works (in every sense of the word). Let me add (for those who think their writing is sacrosanct and should not be influenced by others) that the novel or story will pass into the hands of agents and editors. Better to have it picked over before that stage.
    And editors can sometimes sound pretty much like those writers group members from hell. :)

  6. Frank Wydra

    Good essay, John. And useful. Our group functions somewhat differently, yet if fills our needs. You make many points, but two seem axiomatic:

    1. “The camaraderie of a good group can be inspiring, uplifting, and make you feel that you’re not alone but part of a community of like-minded souls. Plus, you can learn, not only about writing but about fellow writers, who are often amazing.” and,

    2. “serious writers who are willing to listen, accept criticism, and work hard to improve their work, and competent, perceptive critics who genuinely want to help them. When both conditions exist, wonderful things can happen.”

    This piece is so good, I’m sending it all members of my group. Thanks,

    Frank

  7. Mark Rainey

    John,

    You stole my sto-ree.

    Er…my ess-ay.

    Beast.

    Yours, etc.

    –M

    P.S. It’s good.

  8. Elizabeth Massie

    I was in a writers’ group once, years back, and the variety of works and writers made it fail on so many levels. There was me, the lone horror/suspense writer, several retired ladies who wrote inspirational memoirs (one insisted on putting everything she wanted to emphasize in quotation marks and could not for the life of her catch on to why that didn’t work), a man who wrote science fiction that was basically rip-offs of Star Trek, etc., a guy who wrote nonfiction articles on local events (mainly political rantings), and a couple of angsty poets. I went maybe four times and gave up. Nobody seemed to know how to critique other people’s type of work. I would get the “oooh, that’s pretty scary!” and “I don’t understand why you write stories like that.” Actual helpful comments? None that I recall. Note that I live in a rather rural area with some small towns so there isn’t a concentration of people who write any one thing. But hey, I gave it a shot. As to joining one now, I can see there is value, absolutely. But I guess I’m too selfish to spend all that time critiquing other people’s stuff on a regular basis. I know, that sounds awful but it’s true. I’m sure I’m missing out due to that.

    Beth, the outcast.

  9. David Niall Wilson

    I fall a little bit into Beth’s territory these days, though I can tell you that John’s group (Richard’s actually) helped me immensely. There is a point after which you may not NEED the group in the same ways that you did. I don’t know if my work has suffered from the lack, or not, but I know my life just evolved to a point where I didn’t have the time to apply myself to the group in a manner useful to myself and to others in the group…so I stopped attending.

    I get some of the value from on-line groups, and a lot of the same interaction through correspondence, which works better for me at this point in my life.

    Beth, the group in question was VERY diverse, but somehow the dynamic worked…we managed to critique one another, even though not everyone in the room wrote the same things. Maybe it was that the core group liked genre fiction, mostly, and was very tolerant of other forms when they were presented. At least one member I recall was a good copy editor, a good critic, but wrote nothing and came week after week anyway…her name was Pam.

    There are definitely good, and bad groups. I attended a couple of others over the years, and never found another where I was comfortable.

    D

  10. anne frasier

    “Often, their “critiques” reveal not so much the merits or demerits of what you’ve written, but some personal inner quirk, wound, neurosis, or impenetrable denseness. Perhaps worst of all, their comments may be all over the waterfront and resemble a dozen blind men feeling different parts of an elephant and thinking it’s a refrigerator.”

    i snorted so hard at this that my nose started bleeding.

  11. David Niall Wilson

    Just think if that happened to the refrigerator.

    :)

  12. John B. Rosenman

    Thanks, Stan. I know I have a weakness for exposition. By that I mean I explain a lot. In other words . . .

    Mark - Sorr-eeee.

    Glad you liked it, Frank. Feel free to circulate it.

    Beth — I’m sorry you’re an outcast. Good as our group is, it isn’t perfect. We’ve had some real doozies over the years. Fortunately, though, we’ve always been saved by having at least two capable readers. Sometimes Dave was one of them, though he did inspire the refrigerator reference.

  13. Sully

    Well, you kept Mark from stealing my essay when you stole his. Yeah, good subject I intend to weigh into some day. Frank and I belonged to “The Society of the Black Bull.” Legendary group. Like he says, somewhat different. Speaking for myself, I can’t immerse beyond the time limits of a single meeting. Ergo, I want it all there. A reading, a response, endgame.

    – Sully (Thomas Sullivan)

  14. David Niall Wilson

    But Sully…what if you were temporarily blind, and you immersed only once, and then you tried to sell a refrigerator? :)

    DNW (who just can’t let it go)

  15. Elizabeth Massie

    “Beth — I’m sorry you’re an outcast.” John, I don’t myself as an outcast…more of a self-imposed withdrawer. In this group, it just seemed that the folks wanted a chance to share their writing to somebody…anybody…without really knowing how to make the thing work as a whole (I sure didn’t at the time and wasn’t going to try to fix it ’cause there was too much to fix!)

    Beth

  16. John B. Rosenman

    Beth, you’re not an outcast, but you wisely withdrew from a group of inexperienced wannabees.

    Perhaps most writers’ groups are just plain bad or exist for reasons basically unrelated to writing such as ego stroking and socializing.

  17. julielocke

    I don’t think that all writers groups are bad. You just need to find a group that is in the same place that you are.

    If the group is made up of all inexperienced wannabes, then that makes it a good place for inexperienced wannabes! It isn’t the right place for people with English Degrees and several novels under their belt. If an experienced writer were to join the group, it probably wouldn’t benifit them alot. THe solution — join a group that meets your needs.

    I have put alot of thought into this subject reciently as I have been creating a website that is devoted to writers, and is, in many ways, set up as a “writers group”. However, this is an interactive site that allows people to meet others with their interests, skill levels and that will be able to help them with their work. I dont think that this is a bad thing at all.

    I dont think that if you have joined a few groups that did not meet your needs that you need to bash the idea altogether.

    These kinds of groups are espessually helpful for new writers or experienced writers dabbling in a new genre.

    Julie Locke
    http://www.creativewritingstudio.com

Reply to “Writers’ Groups from Hell”